本片对白下载 本片字幕下载 第四公民Citizenfour
In January 2013, Laura Poitras, an American documentary film director/producer who had been working for several years on a film about monitoring programs in the United States that were the result of the September 11 attacks, receives an encrypted e-mail from a stranger who calls himself, “Citizenfour.” In it, he offers her inside information about illegal wiretapping practices of the US National Security Agency (NSA) and other intelligence agencies. 更多介绍…
1、”Laura, at this stage,
2、I can offer nothing more than my word.
3、I am a senior government employee in the intelligence community.
4、I hope you understand that contacting you is extremely high risk
5、and you are willing to agree to the following precautions
6、before I share more.
7、This will not be a waste of your time.
8、The following sounds complex
9、but should only take minutes to complete for someone technical.
10、I would like to confirm out of email
11、that the keys we exchanged were not intercepted
12、and replaced by your surveillance.
13、Please confirm that no one has ever had a copy of your private key
14、and that it uses a strong passphrase.
15、Assume your adversary is capable of one trillion guesses per second.
16、If the device you store the private key
17、and enter your passphrase on has been hacked,
18、it is trivial to decrypt our communications.
19、Understand that the above steps are not bulletproof
20、and are intended only to give us breathing room.
21、In the end, if you publish the source material,
22、I will likely be immediately implicated.
23、This must not deter you from releasing the information I will provide.
24、Thank you, and be careful.
26、Bottom line is… surveillance means
27、that there are facts that we no longer abide to.
28、If you take away the surveillance,
29、there are no facts that the government can manufacture.
30、Ah, that’s right, and this is all about creating an independent record.
31、To me, this goes to the question
32、of independently verifying what the government is doing.
33、That’s why I keep going back to that question.
34、More with David Sirota after CBS news,
35、traffic, and weather on KKZN Denver/Boulder, AM 7…
36、Hey, can you hear me?
37、I am here, David, how are you?
38、Well I would just point… start by pointing to
39、what Barack Obama himself said about those questions
40、when he was running for the office that he now occupies.
41、In December of 2007, he said, quote,
42、”The president does not have the power under the Constitution
43、to unilaterally authorize a military attack
44、in a situation that does not involve stopping
45、an actual or imminent threat to the nation. ”
46、So by Obama’s own words, the president does not have the power
47、that he is now exercising under the Constitution.
48、And as far as why it matters, in… on August 1, 2007,
49、when he laid out his reasons why he was running for office
50、and why he thought it was so important to change the way we were doing things,
51、he said, quote, “No more ignoring the law when it’s inconvenient.
52、That is not who we are.
53、We will again set an example for the world
54、that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers… ”
55、You asked why I picked you.
56、I didn’t. You did.
57、The surveillance you’ve experienced means you’ve been “selected,”
58、a term which will mean more to you as you learn about
59、how the modern SIGINT system works.
60、For now, know that every border you cross,
61、every purchase you make, every call you dial,
62、every cell phone tower you pass, friend you keep,
63、article you write, site you visit, subject line you type,
64、and packet you route is in the hands of a system
65、whose reach is unlimited, but whose safeguards are not.
66、Your victimization by the NSA system means that you are well aware of the threat
67、that unrestricted secret police pose for democracies.
68、This is a story few but you can tell.
69、Thank you for inviting me here
70、to give me the opportunity to express my story.
71、Let me give you some of my background.
72、I spent about four years in the military, and then I went into NSA.
74、So I ended up with about 37 years of service combined.
75、Most of it was a lot of fun, I tell you,
76、it was really a lot of fun, breaking these puzzles you know,
77、solving problems and things like that.
78、And that’s really what I did, I fundamentally started working with data,
79、looking at data and data systems and how you do that.
80、I was developing this concept of analysis
81、that you could lay it out in such a way
82、that it could be coded and executed electronically.
83、Meaning you could automate analysis.
84、And it has to do with metadata and using metadata relationships.
85、So that was the whole, that was my whole theme there at NSA.
86、That was eventually, that’s what I ended up to.
87、I was the only one there doing that, by the way.
88、So any rate, 9/11 happened,
89、and it must have been right after, a few days,
90、no more than a week after 9/11
91、that they decided to begin actively spying on everyone in this country.
92、And they wanted the back part
93、of our program to run all of the spying.
94、All right? So, that’s exactly what they did.
95、And then they started taking the telecom data
96、and expanded after that.
97、I mean the one I knew was AT&T,
98、and that one provided 320 million records every day.
99、That program was reauthorized every 45 days
100、by what I call the “yes committee,”
101、which was Hayden and Tenet and the DOJ.
102、The program was called Stellar Wind.
103、So first I went to the House Intelligence Committee
104、and the staff member that I personally knew there,
105、and she then went to the chairman of the committee,
106、Nancy Pelosi was the minority rep.
107、They were all briefed into the program
108、at the time, by the way,
109、and all the other programs that were going on,
110、including all these CIA programs.
111、I wasn’t alone in this. There were four others out of NSA,
112、and we were all trying to work internally
113、in the government over these years
114、trying to get them to come around
115、to being constitutionally acceptable
116、and take it into the courts
117、and have the courts’ oversight of it too.
118、So we, we naively kept thinking
119、that could, uh, that could happen.
120、And it never did.
121、But any rate, after that,
122、and all the stuff we were doing they decided to raid us,
123、to keep us quiet, threaten us, you know.
124、So we were raided simultaneously, four of us.
125、In my case, they came in with guns drawn.
126、I don’t know why they did that, but they did, so…
127、Laura, I will answer
128、what I remember of your questions as best I can.
129、Forgive the lack of structure.
130、I am not a writer, and I have to draft this in a great hurry.
131、What you know as Stellar Wind has grown.
132、SSO, the expanded Special Source Operations
133、that took over Stellar Wind’s share of the pie,
134、has spread all over the world to practically include
135、comprehensive coverage of the United States.
136、Disturbingly, the amount of US communication
137、ingested by NSA is still increasing.
138、Publicly, we complain that things are going dark,
139、but in fact, our accesses are improving.
140、The truth is that the NSA has never in its history
141、collected more than it does now.
142、I know the location of most domestic interception points
143、and that the largest telecommunication companies in the US
144、are betraying the trust of their customers,
145、which I can prove.
146、We are building the greatest weapon for oppression
147、in the history of man,
148、yet its directors exempt themselves from accountability.
149、NSA director Keith Alexander lied to Congress,
150、which I can prove.
151、Billions of US communications are being intercepted.
152、In gathering evidence of wrongdoing,
153、I focused on the wronging of the American people,
154、but believe me when I say that
155、the surveillance we live under is the highest privilege
156、compared to how we treat the rest of the world.
157、This I can also prove.
158、On cyber operations, the government’s public position
159、is that we still lack a policy framework.
160、This too is a lie.
161、There is a detailed policy framework,
162、a kind of Marshall Law for cyber operations
163、created by the White House.
164、It’s called Presidential Policy Directive 20
165、and was finalized at the end of last year.
166、This I can also prove.
167、I appreciate your concern for my safety,
168、but I already know how this will end for me,
169、and I accept the risk.
170、If I have luck and you are careful,
171、you will have everything you need.
172、I ask only that you ensure this information
173、makes it home to the American public.
174、Does the NSA routinely intercept American citizens’ emails?
176、Does the NSA intercept Americans’ cell phone conversations?
178、- Google searches? – No.
179、- Text messages? – No.
180、- Amazon. com orders? – No.
181、- Bank records? – No.
182、What judicial consent is required for NSA
183、to intercept communications…
184、and information involving American citizens?
185、Within the United States, that would be the FBI lead.
186、If it was a foreign actor in the United States,
187、the FBI would still have the lead and could work that with…
188、with NSA or other intelligence agencies as authorized.
189、But to conduct that kind of…
190、of collection in the United States, it would have to go through a court order,
191、and the court would have to authorize it.
192、We are not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.
194、The United States Court of Appeals
195、for the Ninth Circuit is now in session.
196、Please be seated.
197、Good morning, and welcome to the Ninth Circuit.
198、The first case for argument is
199、Jewel versus National Security Agency.
200、You may proceed.
201、May it please the court, Kevin Bankston,
202、for Carolyn Jewel and her fellow plaintiff appellants in Jewel v. NSA.
203、Your Honors, plaintiffs have specifically alleged
204、that their own communications and communications records
205、have been acquired by the government.
206、But the District Court found that
207、we had failed to allege facts
208、that differentiated the injury that our plaintiffs suffered
209、from the injuries suffered by every otherAT&T user
210、whose communications and records have been acquired by the government,
211、basically concluding that so long as everyone is being surveilled,
212、no one has standing to sue.
213、However, to deny standing to persons
214、who are injured simply because many others are also injured
215、would mean that the most injurious and widespread government actions
216、could be questioned by nobody.
217、Do you have anything concrete that in fact
218、a specific communication of your client was intercepted?
219、We have evidence that all the communications
220、passing between AT&T’s network and other networks
221、in their Northern California facility have been intercepted.
222、And so that would necessarily include the Internet communications
223、of our Northern California plaintiffs.
224、Okay, thank you.
225、Thank you, Your Honors.
226、May it please the court, I am Thomas Byron from the Department of Justice
227、here on behalf of the government defendants.
228、We think this litigation need not be resolved in federal court
229、in light of the oversight of the political branches,
230、both legislative and executive,
231、which provides a better opportunity
232、for oversight and resolution of the concerns raised
233、concerning nationwide policies of alleged surveillance,
234、uh, in these complaints.
235、Even if it’s revealed that one or more of the plaintiffs
236、had email or telephone conversations intercepted
237、that had nothing to do with national security?
238、Your Honor, I don’t know that anyone necessarily
239、would have standing to raise
240、the particular claims at issue in these two cases.
241、We think instead that the kinds of claims at issue here
242、against these defendants
243、are those that are better suited to resolution
244、before the… the representative branches of our government.
245、So what role would the judiciary have
246、if your approach is adopted?
247、Judge Pregerson, I think that…
248、I mean, we just get out of the way, is that it?
249、Well, Judge Pregerson, I think that there is a narrow category,
250、a subset of cases, in which it may be appropriate to step aside
251、for that narrow category of cases.
252、But the judiciary plays a role…
253、To be sure, Judge Pregerson…
254、- … in our system. – Yes, Your Honor.
255、And we don’t mean to diminish that.
256、You know, you’re asking us to abdicate that role.
257、No, Your Honor, um, but it is a question of this court’s discretion
258、whether to reach that issue.
259、We do think that there is simply no way
260、for the litigation to proceed without risk of divulging
261、those very questions of privileged information that would cause,
262、as the Director of National Intelligence has explained,
263、exceptionally grave damage
264、to national security if disclosed.
265、Um, thanks for having me.
266、If anybody has any questions, like I said, basically just raise your hand
267、and I’ll try to call on you as soon as I possibly can.
268、So who here actually feels like
269、they are under surveillance pretty regularly?
270、Everyone inside of Occupy.
271、How many people have been arrested and had their,
272、at their court date, they had their phone taken into the back room?
273、How many people in here had their retina scanned?
275、Um, so you guys are actually in a sense the canaries in the coal mine.
276、Right, because the incentives are all lined up against you.
277、Anybody see on the subway,
278、”Link your MetroCard to your debit card,” right?
280、This is a concept which is key to everything we’ll talk about today.
281、And it’s called linkability:
282、Take one piece of data and link it to another piece of data.
283、So, for example, if you have your MetroCard
284、and you have your debit card, you have those things
285、and you can draw a line between them, right?
286、So that’s, like, not a scary thing, except your bank card is tied
287、to everything else that you do during the day.
288、So now they know where you’re going, when you make purchases.
289、So when they decide to target you,
290、they can actually recreate your exact steps.
291、With a MetroCard and with a credit card, alone,
292、like literally where you go and what you buy,
293、and potentially by linking that data with other people
294、on similar travel plans,
295、they can figure out who you talk to and who you met with.
296、When you then take cell phone data, which logs your location,
297、and you link up purchasing data,
298、MetroCard data, and your debit card,
299、you start to get what you could call “metadata”
300、in aggregate over a person’s life.
301、And metadata, in aggregate, is content.
302、It tells a story about you which is made up of facts,
303、but is not necessarily true.
304、So for example, just because you were on the corner
305、and all those data points point to it, it doesn’t mean you committed the crime.
306、So it’s important to note that
307、if someone has a perception of you having done a thing,
308、it will now follow you for the rest of your life.
309、So just keep in mind that what happens to you guys,
310、for example, with fingerprints and retinal scans and photographs,
311、that is what is going to happen to people in the future
312、when they resist policy changes and when they try to protest
313、in a totally constitutionally protected way.
314、This is for you, Director Clapper, again on the surveillance front,
315、and I hope we can do this in just a yes or no answer
316、because I know Senator Feinstein wants to move on.
317、So, does the NSA collect any type of data at all
318、on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?
320、It does not?
322、There are cases where they could inadvertently,
323、perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.
324、The encrypted archive should be available to you within seven days.
325、The key will follow when everything else is done.
326、The material I provide, and investigative effort required
327、will be too much for any one person.
328、I recommend at a very minimum, you involve Glenn Greenwald.
329、I believe you know him.
330、The plain text of the payload
331、will include my true name details for the record…
332、though it will be your decision as to whether
333、or how to declare my involvement.
334、My personal desire is that you paint the target directly on my back.
335、No one, not even my most trusted confidante,
336、is aware of my intentions,
337、and it would not be fair for them to fall under suspicion for my actions.
338、You may be the only one who can prevent that,
339、and that is by immediately nailing me to the cross
340、rather than trying to protect me as a source.
341、On timing, regarding meeting up in Hong Kong.
342、The first rendezvous attempt
343、will be at 10:00 a. m. local time on Monday.
344、We will meet in the hallway outside of a restaurant in the Mira Hotel.
345、I will be working on a Rubik’s Cube so you can identify me.
346、Approach me, and ask if I know the hours of the restaurant.
347、I’ll respond by stating that I’m not sure,
348、and suggest you try the lounge instead.
349、I’ll offer to show you where it is, and at that point we’re good.
350、You simply need to follow naturally.
351、As far as positioning, I mean, if you want us to sit
352、in any particular way or whatever.
353、You know, I’m gonna go there, to try to get better light.
354、So, um, there’s, you know, so many different
356、just, that are kind of stand alone stories,
357、that even, like, you know,
358、certain things about an individual document
359、that can just be their own story.
360、And I just want to start churning those stories out.
361、I basically woke up this morning and already started writing stories.
362、So I’m hoping to, you know,
363、start publishing like within a day or two days.
364、- Okay. – As long as you’re good with that.
365、- Yeah. – Um, and…
366、So, as far as like the stuff we have to talk about,
367、I’m kind of dichotomizing it,
368、between stuff that I’d like to talk to you about
369、in terms of like the documents and the content,
370、and Laura has a bunch of questions about that as well,
371、sort of working through the documents,
372、getting your take on a lot of this stuff that,
373、you know, will help me understand it better.
374、But then also the sort of “you” story,
375、like the who you are, what you’ve done,
376、why you’ve done what you’ve done.
377、- Yeah. – And I’d love to do that first.
379、Um, in part because you’re the only one who can do that.
380、So I’d just like to get that done so that it’s done, um,
381、and also because, you know,
382、it might be that you want to do that early.
383、- Because… – Who knows what could happen…
384、It might be necessary, we might choose to have that done early.
385、Tell me your thoughts on where you are with that…
386、The primary one on that,
387、I think I’ve expressed that a couple times online,
388、is I feel the modern media has a big focus on personalities.
390、And I’m a little concerned the more we focus on that,
391、the more they’re gonna use that as a distraction.
392、And I don’t necessarily want that to happen,
393、which is why I’ve consistently said, you know,
394、”I’m not the story here. ”
396、No, it’s a very, very cheap pen,
397、that just with the slightest force broke, go ahead.
398、But uh, yeah,
399、anything I can do to help you guys
400、get this out I will do.
401、I don’t have, uh, any experience with media,
402、with how this works, so I’m kind of learning as I go.
403、Right, so I just want to get a sense
404、of why did you decide to do what you’ve done.
405、So, for me, it all comes down to state power
406、against the peoples’ ability to meaningfully oppose that power.
407、And I’m sitting there, uh, every day
408、getting paid to design methods
409、to amplify that state power.
410、And I’m realizing that if, you know,
411、the policy switches that are the only things
412、that restrain these states,
413、were changed, there…
414、you couldn’t meaningfully oppose these.
415、I mean you would have to be
416、the most incredibly sophisticated,
417、technical actor in existence.
418、I mean, I’m not sure there’s anybody,
419、no matter how gifted you are,
420、who could oppose all of the offices
421、and all the bright people, even all the mediocre people
422、out there with all of their tools and all their capabilities.
423、And as I saw the promise of the Obama administration
424、be betrayed and walked away from
425、and in fact, actually advance…
427、…the things that had been promised
428、to be sort of curtailed and reigned in and dialed back,
429、and actually get worse, particularly drone strikes,
430、which I also learned at NSA,
431、we could watch drone videos from our desktops.
432、As I saw that, that really hardened me to action.
433、- In real time? – In real time.
434、Yeah, you… it’ll stream
435、a lower quality of the video to your desktop.
436、Typically you’d be watching surveillance drones
437、as opposed to actually like you know murder drones
438、where they’re going out there and bomb somebody.
439、But you’ll have a drone that’s just following somebody’s house
440、for hours and hours.
441、And you won’t know who it is,
442、because you don’t have the context for that.
443、But it’s just a page,
444、where it’s lists and lists of drone feeds
445、in all these different countries,
446、under all these different code names,
447、and you can just click on which one you want to see.
448、Right, but, so if your self-interest
449、is to live in a world in which there’s maximum privacy,
450、doing something that could put you into prison,
451、in which your privacy is completely destroyed,
452、is sort of the antithesis of that.
453、How did you reach the point where that was a worthwhile calculation for you?
454、I remember what the Internet was like before it was being watched,
455、and there’s never been anything in the history of man that’s like it.
456、I mean, you could again have children
457、from one part of the world having an equal discussion
458、where, you know, they were sort of granted,
459、um, the same respect for their ideas and conversation,
460、with experts in a field from another part of the world,
461、on any topic, anywhere, anytime, all the time.
462、And it was free and unrestrained.
463、And we’ve seen, uh, the chilling of that
464、and the cooling of that and the changing of that model,
465、toward something in which people self-police their own views,
466、and they literally make jokes about ending up on “the list”
467、if they donate to a political cause
468、or if they say something in a discussion.
469、Uh, and it’s become an expectation
470、that we’re being watched.
471、Um, many people I’ve talked to have mentioned that
472、they’re careful about what they type into search engines
473、because they know that it’s being recorded.
474、And that limits the boundaries of their intellectual exploration.
475、Uh… and I’m…
476、I am more willing to risk imprisonment,
477、or any other negative outcome, personally,
478、than I am willing to risk
479、the curtailment of my intellectual freedom
480、and that of those around me
481、whom I care for, uh, equally, as I do for myself.
482、And again, that’s not to say that I’m self-sacrificing,
483、because it gives me…
484、I feel good in my human experience
485、to know that I can contribute to the good of others.
486、Could you elaborate on that?
487、So, I don’t know how much of the programs
488、and the actual technical capacities everybody’s talked to you about,
489、but there’s an infrastructure in place in the United States and worldwide…
490、that NSA has built,
491、in cooperation with other governments as well…
492、that intercepts basically every digital communication,
493、every radio communication, every analog communication
494、that it has sensors in place to detect.
495、And with these capabilities, basically,
496、the vast majority of human
497、and computer-to-computer communications,
499、which sort of inform the relationships
501、are automatically ingested without targeting.
502、And that allows individuals to retroactively
503、search your communications based on self-certifications.
504、So, for example, if I wanted to see the content of your email,
505、or, you know, your wife’s phone calls, or anything like that,
506、all I have to do is use what’s called a “selector,”
507、any kind of thing in the communications chain
508、that might uniquely or almost uniquely
509、identify you as an individual.
510、And I’m talking about things like email addresses,
511、IP addresses, phone numbers, credit cards,
512、um, even passwords that are unique to you
513、that aren’t used by anyone else.
514、I can input those into the system,
515、and it will not only go back through the database
516、and go, “Have I seen this anywhere in the past?”
518、basically put an additional level of scrutiny on it,
519、moving into the future, that says,
520、”If this is detected now or at anytime in the future
521、I want this to go to me immediately,
522、and alert me in real time” that you’re communicating with someone.
523、Things like that.
524、So I don’t know who you are or anything about you.
526、I work for Booz Allen Hamilton,
527、a defense contractor,
528、I’m sort of on loan to NSA.
529、I don’t talk to a Booz Allen boss,
530、I don’t get tasking from Booz Allen, it’s all from NSA.
531、- Sorry, I don’t know your name. – Oh, sorry!
532、I, uh… my name is Edward Snowden.
533、I go by Ed. Um…
534、Edward Joseph Snowden is the full name.
535、- S-N… – O-W-D-E-N
536、And where are you from?
537、I’m originally, I was born in North Carolina,
538、uh, small town, Elizabeth City.
539、There’s a Coast Guard station there. I’m from a military family.
540、But I spent most of my time
541、growing up around Fort Meade in Maryland.
542、And your family, what’s the consequences for them?
543、This is actually what has made this hardest.
544、My family doesn’t know what’s happening.
546、I don’t think I’ll be able to keep the family ties
547、that I’ve had for my life, um,
548、because of the risk of associating them with this.
549、And I’ll leave, you know, what to publish on this
550、and what not to publish to you guys.
551、I trust you to be responsible on this.
552、Um, but basically, the closer I stay to my family,
553、the more likely they are to be leaned on, you know.
554、So you don’t want me to report this?
555、I mean, we definitely want to do whatever we can
556、not to include them or bring them into the mix.
557、Yeah, yeah, sure, that’s fine, I won’t…
558、I’m sorry, let me interrupt you.
559、Can we just stop for a second and do the documents and then go back to that?
560、- Does that makes sense? – Sure.
561、What do I need?
562、Do I need an email address that we’re using, or…?
563、Well, so you can, you can send them…
564、once you’ve encrypted it, you can send it from whatever you think is appropriate.
565、The main thing is you’ve got to encapsulate all of this
566、in a way that it can’t be decrypted and read
567、when it’s in transit across the network…
569、…or on either of the end points that it’s received at.
570、Just so you know, these documents are
571、basically all gonna be uploaded in like 48 hours, 72 hours, whatever…
572、This is simply… you want to get in the process of doing this for everything,
573、because it seems hard, but it’s not hard, his is super easy.
574、So just walk me through it, and…
575、Okay. Show me… show me the actual folder structure
576、where these files are first.
577、How many documents did you say there were?
579、Well, while you’re working did you want to…?
580、Okay, go ahead.
581、How many documents are we talking about?
582、Because when The Guardian did WikiLeaks,
583、technical people set up a system
584、so they were available for anybody to see.
585、And I just wondered if it’s possible to do the same thing?
586、That would be the ideal end game,
587、um, but because some of these documents
588、are legitimately classified in ways
589、that could cause harm to people and methods…
590、I’m comfortable in my technical ability to protect them,
591、I mean you could literally shoot me or torture me,
592、and I could not disclose the password if I wanted to.
593、Um, you know, I have the sophistication to do that.
594、There are some journalists that I think could do that,
595、but there are a number of them that couldn’t.
596、But the question becomes,
597、can an organization actually control that information
598、in that manner without risking
599、basically an uncontrolled disclosure?
600、But I do agree with that.
601、Honestly, I don’t want to be the person
602、making the decisions on
603、what should be public and what shouldn’t.
604、Which is why, rather than publishing these on my own,
605、or putting them out openly, I’m running them through journalists.
606、So that my bias, you know, and my things…
607、Because clearly I have some strongly held views,
608、are removed from that equation,
609、and the public interest is being represented
610、in the most responsible manner.
612、Actually, given your sort of, you know,
613、geographic familiarity with the UK and whatnot,
614、I’d like to point out that GCHQ has, uh,
615、probably the most invasive…
616、I’ve heard about that.
617、…network intercept program anywhere in the world.
619、It’s called Tempora, T-E-M-P-O-R-A,
620、and it’s the world’s first “full take,”
621、they call it, and that means content
622、in addition to metadata, on everything.
623、Um, so this is what I’d like to do in terms of scheduling,
624、if it’s good with everybody else.
625、Um, are you… do you feel like you’re done with what you…?
626、I am done.
627、I’m anxious to go back, get those articles done.
628、And then there’s a bunch of documents that aren’t about
629、those first two or three stories that I’d like to spend time with you…
630、- Sure, yeah… – … you know, kind of going over it.
631、- Um, and… – I’m not going anywhere!
632、You’re available? You want to check your book first?
633、Yeah! Let me… uh… let me check my schedule.
634、Is that good for you, Laura?
635、- It’s great. – Okay.
638、My meal was great, thank you very much.
639、No, I still have some left, and I think I’m gonna be eating it later.
640、So, uh, you can just leave me alone for now.
641、Okay, great. Thank you so much.
642、Have a good one. Bye.
643、Let’s fix that real quick.
644、So uh, another fun thing, I was telling Laura about this:
645、all these new VOIP phones, they have little computers in them,
646、and you can hot mic these over the network…
647、all the time, even when the receiver’s down.
648、So as long as it’s plugged in, it can be listening in on you.
649、And I hadn’t even considered that earlier, but yeah.
651、There are so many ways this could be…
652、Everything in here is gonna be on the public record at some point.
653、We, we should operate on that, that basis, because…
654、Yeah, we are.
655、Do you have your air-gapped machine with you?
656、I do, I do.
657、You can pop that out.
658、Do you have an understanding or commitment
659、on when you guys are going to press with the first stories?
660、I suppose seven or eight in the morning in London.
662、Now let’s see here.
663、Oh, hey, look, there’s the other one.
664、Pro tip, let’s not leave the same SD cards
665、in our laptops forever, in the future.
666、Did you know this was still kicking around in your laptop?
667、Yeah, um, that was the…
668、- Okay, just making sure. – Okay, yeah.
669、- This is that. – Right there.
670、You will have a new one that looks exactly identical that’s a different archive,
671、so you might want to take a Sharpie to it, or something.
672、Could you pass me my magic mantle of power?
673、Mm-hmm. I’m gonna go pick up…
674、Is that about the possibility of…
675、Visual… yeah, visual collection.
676、I don’t think at this point there’s anything that will shock us.
677、We’ve become pretty…
678、In fact, Ewen said before, he’s like, he’s like “I’m never leaving my room…
679、I’m never leaving anything in my room again, not a single machine. ”
680、I was like, “You’ve been infected by the paranoia bug.
681、- Happens to all of us!” – Yeah.
682、The way he said it, he was like,
683、”I would never leave a single device in the room again alone. ”
684、My bag is getting heavier and heavier.
685、That’s your evil influence, Ed.
686、All right, I’m going need you to enter your root password
687、because I don’t know what it is.
688、If you want to use this, you’re more than welcome to.
689、Looks like your root password’s about four characters long anyway, so…
690、It’s usually a lot longer, but that’s just a one-time-only thing, right?
691、So it is… uh…
692、It had been a lot longer, but ever since I knew that
693、it was just like a one time only session one,
694、I’ve been making it shorter. Is that not good?
695、It’s actually not. I was expressing this with Laura.
696、The issue is, because of the fact that it’s got a hardware mac address
697、and things like that, if people are able
698、to identify your machine, and they’re able to…
699、This is the fact you’re about to break the most upsetting story…
700、Right, that’s true, that’s true.
701、Yeah, so they might kind of prioritize you…
702、It’s ten letters. I type very quickly.
703、It actually is ten letters.
704、Okay, so ten letters would be good
705、if they had to brute force the entire keyspace.
707、That would still probably only take a couple days for NSA.
708、That’s a fire alarm.
710、Hopefully it just sounds like a three second test.
711、Or is… do you want to call the desk and ask?
712、I think it’s fine.
713、Yeah, I don’t think it’s an issue, but it’s interesting that it just…
714、Did that happen before?
715、Maybe they got mad when they couldn’t listen in to us via the phone anymore.
716、Has the fire alarm gone off before?
717、No, that’s the first time that’s happened.
718、Let me see, just in case,
719、they’ve got an alert that goes to…
721、- You probably… – We might have to evacuate.
722、…shouldn’t ignore that.
723、I don’t know.
724、- It’s not continuous. – It’s not continuous.
725、No, I’m just saying, if it continues.
726、And then we go and we meet the guys down in the lobby…
727、- Yeah, right? – Yeah.
728、Yeah, let’s uh, let’s leave it for now.
729、Let me just finish this up.
731、Not that they’re going to answer,
732、because they probably got like 7,000 calls.
733、Hi, uh, we hear a loud buzzing
734、on the tenth floor, can you tell us what that is?
736、Okay great. Thank you. Bye.
737、Fire alarm testing maintenance.
738、That’s good. That’s what we wanted to hear.
739、Nice of them to uh…
740、nice of them to let us know about that in advance.
742、I just wanted to give you kind of a quick tour,
743、uh, when Laura was looking at this, she was kind of salivating
744、and couldn’t stop actually reading the documents…
746、So we’ll try and restrain ourselves without promising that we’ll succeed.
747、Yeah, I just wanted to kind of explain
748、a brief overview of what these are and how they’re organized.
749、Um, the beginning are just some documents of interest.
750、The primary purpose of the second archive
751、is to bring the focus over to SSO,
752、as opposed to uh, PRISM.
753、And this is in general.
754、SSO are the Special Source Operations,
755、those are the worldwide passive collection on networks.
756、They’re both domestic to the US and international.
757、There’s a lot of different ways they do it,
758、but corporate partnerships are one of the primary things,
759、uh, they do domestically, they also do this with multinationals
760、that might be headquartered in the US they can kind of coerce,
761、or just pay into giving them access.
762、And they also do it bilaterally, with the assistance of certain governments.
763、And that’s basically on the premise that they go,
764、”All right, we’ll help you set this system up
765、if you give us all the data from it. ”
766、Um, so yeah…
768、There’s a lot more in here than any one person or probably one team could do.
770、Um, XKeyscore DeepDive, XKeyscore in general,
771、and there’s a huge folder of documentation
772、on XKeyscore and how it works,
773、is the front-end system that analysts use
774、for querying that sort of ocean of raw SIGINT that I was telling you about.
775、All of that stuff where you can sort of do the retroactive searches
776、and live searches and get flagging and whatnot,
777、XKeyscore is the front end for that.
778、I’m just gonna show you one slide here
779、’cause Laura thought it was valuable,
780、and I was talking about kind of how these,
781、uh, capabilities ramp up in sophistication over time.
782、This is kinda nice. As of fiscal year 2011,
783、they could monitor one billion telephone or Internet sessions
784、simultaneously per one of these devices.
785、And they could collect at the rate of about 125 gigabytes a second,
786、which is a terabit.
787、That’s just each one of these devices.
788、That’s for each one of these, yeah.
789、And how many Tumult machines would there be, then?
790、Uh… per this, back then, there were 20 sites,
791、there’s 10 at DOD installations, but these are all outdated.
792、We’ve expanded pretty rapidly.
793、But still 20 sites, that’s at least 20 billion.
794、This all needs to get out, you know I mean?
796、just in terms of understanding the capabilities. It’s so opaque.
797、It’s not science fiction. This stuff is happening right now.
798、No, that’s what I mean, it’s like, the, the magnitude of it, and…
799、and, like, this is a pretty inaccessible technical document,
800、but even this, like, is really chilling.
801、- Do you know what I mean? – Yeah.
802、Yeah, I mean we should have… we should be having debates about
803、whether we want governments…
804、I mean, this is massive and extraordinary.
806、Even though you know it, even though you know that…
807、to see it, like, the physical blueprints of it,
808、and sort of the technical expressions of it,
809、really hits home in like a super visceral way
810、that is so needed.
811、This is CNN Breaking News.
812、An explosive new report is reigniting the concerns
813、that your privacy is being violated to protect America’s security.
814、It reveals a court order giving the National Security Agency
815、blanket access to millions of Verizon customers’ records on a daily basis.
816、Earlier I had the chance to conduct the first TV interview
817、with the reporter who broke this story wide open:
818、Glenn Greenwald of The Guardian.
819、Congratulations on the scoop.
820、Explain for our viewers why this is important.
821、It’s important because people have understood
822、that the law that this was done under,
823、which is the Patriot Act, enacted in the wake of 9/11,
824、was a law that allowed the government
825、very broad powers to get records about people
826、with a lower level of suspicion than probable cause, the traditional standard.
827、So it’s always been assumed that under the Patriot Act,
828、if the government had even any suspicion
829、that you were involved in a crime or terrorism,
830、they could get a lot of information about you.
831、What this court order does that makes it so striking,
832、is that it’s not directed at any individuals
833、who they believe or have suspicion of committing crimes
834、or are part of a terrorist organization,
835、it’s collecting the phone records of every single customer
836、of Verizon business
837、and finding out every single call that they’ve made, internationally and locally,
838、so it’s indiscriminate and it’s sweeping.
839、It’s a government program designed to collect information
840、about all Americans, not just people
841、where they believe there’s reason to think they’ve done anything wrong.
842、Ah, it’s, it’s a tough situation,
843、you know, hearing that the person that you love,
844、that you’ve spent the decade with,
845、may not be coming back.
846、What did they ask her?
847、Um, when was the last time she saw me,
848、where am I, um, what am I doing,
849、you know, what does she know about
850、my illness, things like that.
853、Yeah, they’re um… they’re pretty solidly aware.
855、I’m clearly not at home ill.
856、- Hello? – Hello?
857、Hello, let me disconnect from the Internet.
858、So, there’s some news?
859、Yes, there was indeed some news. I have config.
860、Today, I think, maybe just a few hours ago?
861、What… what kind of people visited?
863、An H.R. lady, I’m assuming from NSA
864、as opposed to, uh, as opposed to Booz Allen,
865、because she was accompanied by a police officer,
866、which means NSA police.
867、And they were planning to break into my house,
868、which regular police don’t do.
869、Does she live there?
870、Yeah, she lives there. So I told her to cooperate fully…
871、I can’t find my phone, just one second…
872、You know, don’t worry about herself.
873、You know what, I’ll just take out the stuff I wanna use…
875、Okay, well look, I mean, this is not a surprising development.
876、Nah, I know, I planned for it, but it’s just, you know,
877、when it’s impacting them and they’re talking to you,
878、it’s a little bit different.
880、But it’s possible that they just noticed that you’re missing.
881、I guess it’s not really a possibility.
882、It is, but they’re, I mean…
883、Um… Let me just get rid of this.
884、Sorry, I obviously was focused on other things than appearance this morning.
885、How was… How did she react? Was she relatively calm about it?
886、She’s relatively calm…
887、Does she know anything about what you’re doing and why?
888、She has no idea.
889、And that’s, I mean, I…
890、I feel badly about that, but that’s the only way I could think of where,
891、like, she can’t be in trouble.
892、Did you just basically do a, “I have to go somewhere
893、for reasons that I can’t tell you about” kind of thing, or…?
894、I just disappeared when she was on vacation.
895、Um, and I left a note saying, “Hey, I’m going to be gone for a while for work,”
896、which isn’t unusual for me in my business.
897、- Right. – You know, so…
898、Okay, so let me ask you a couple things just quickly.
899、Are they gonna be able to go into your stuff and figure out what you took?
900、Um, in some kind of…
901、some sort of, like, peripheral senses, but not necessarily…
902、- Not with great specificity. – Yes.
903、Because I cast such a wide net.
904、If they do that the only thing they’re gonna do is have a heart attack
905、because they’re gonna go, “He had access to everything. ”
907、And they’re not gonna know what specifically has been done.
908、I think they’re gonna start to actually feel a little better,
909、although they’re not gonna be wild
910、about this in any case, when they see that the stories
911、are kind of cleaving to a trend, you know, it’s not like,
912、”Here’s the list of everybody who works everywhere. ”
914、I also think, you know, they’re gonna be paranoid in the extreme,
915、and assuming all kinds of worst case scenarios,
916、which is gonna, you know, I think make them
917、react in ways that probably aren’t,
918、like, gonna be particularly rational on their part.
919、But, at the same time,
920、there’s… I do think they’re limited for the moment.
921、I agree, and I mean, I had kinda time to set a stage
922、where we all enjoy at least a minimum level of protection,
923、you know, no matter who we are, who’s involved in this,
924、you know, you’re either a journalist, or you’re either out of jurisdiction,
925、so we have some time to play this before they can really get nasty.
926、I think it’s over, you know, the weeks when they have times,
927、to get lawyers really sort of go, “This is a special situation.
928、How can we interpret this to our advantage?”
929、We… we see them do this all the time, you know,
930、whether it’s drones or wiretapping or whatever,
931、they’ll go, “Well according to this law from the 1840s,
932、you know, with X, Y, or Z authority… ”
933、But that takes time. And that takes agreement…
934、And also, you know, I mean,
935、I think the more public we are out there too, like as journalists,
936、the more protection that’s gonna give as well.
937、Have you started to give thought to when you’re ready to come forward?
938、I’m ready whenever, um…
939、Honestly, I think there’s sort of an agreement
940、that it’s not going to bias the reporting process.
941、That’s my primary concern at this point.
942、I don’t want to get myself into the issue
943、before it’s gonna happen anyway, and where it takes away
944、from the stories that are getting out.
945、We’re talking about tens of millions of Americans,
946、who weren’t suspected of doing anything,
947、who were surveilled in this way.
948、Hold your thoughts for a moment. I want to continue this conversation
949、because these are really important, sensitive issues,
950、and the public out there has a right to know what’s going on.
951、This is CNN Breaking News.
952、Another explosive article has just appeared,
953、this time in The Washington Post.
954、It’s breaking news and it reveals another broad
955、and secret US government surveillance program.
956、The Washington Post and The Guardian in London
957、reporting that the NSA and the FBI
958、are tapping directly into the central servers
959、of nine leading Internet companies,
960、including Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook,
961、AOL, Skype, YouTube, and Apple.
962、The Post says they’re extracting audio,
963、video, photographs, emails, documents,
964、and connection logs that enable analysts
965、to track a person’s movements and contacts over time.
966、Let’s discuss this latest revelation… they’re coming out fast. Bill Binney,
967、former official of the NSA who quit back in 2001,
968、you were angry over what was going on,
969、you are known as a whistleblower right now.
970、Bill, what do you think about this Washington Post story?
971、Well, I assume it’s just a continuation of what they’ve been doing all along.
972、So you’re not surprised.
973、Do you have any idea who is leaking this information?
974、I don’t know who leaked this.
975、I have no doubt that the administration
976、will launch an investigation,
977、not into who approved these programs but into who leaked the information.
978、I’m not shocked the companies are denying it,
979、- I don’t assume… – Do you believe them?
980、There may be some technical basis
981、on which they can say that we are not actively collaborating
982、or they don’t have what we consider in our own definition
983、to be direct access to our servers
984、but what I do know is that I’ve talked to more than one person
985、who has sat at a desk at a web portal
986、and typed out commands and reached into those servers from a distance.
987、So whatever they want to call that, that’s what’s happening.
988、Well, what I would call it is the single biggest infringement
989、on American civil liberties probably of all time, isn’t it?
990、It’s interesting, already you have The New York Times
991、now today saying that the administration has lost all credibility.
992、The New York Times slammed President Obama for this,
993、and frankly I was used to that.
994、The New York Times used to slam George Bush
995、for protecting the country and for the steps he took.
996、I don’t want us to drop our guard, I don’t want us to be struck again.
997、As we saw in Boston, Anderson, people are willing
998、to sacrifice their civil liberties.
999、People sheltered inside…
1000、How can you believe in freedom, do you think…
1001、I mean, try and play Devil’s Advocate for me,
1002、when you have secret courts, secret operations like PRISM,
1003、secret investigations which go into every spit and cough
1004、of every American’s lives,
1005、without any member of the American public knowing about it.
1006、That’s not freedom, is it?
1007、In 2008, they eliminated the warrant requirement
1008、for all conversations except ones that take place
1009、by and among Americans exclusively on American soil.
1010、So they don’t need warrants now for people
1011、who are foreigners outside of the US,
1012、but they also don’t need warrants for Americans
1013、who are in the United States communicating with people
1014、reasonably believed to be outside of the US.
1015、So again, the fact that there are no checks, no oversight
1016、about who is looking over the NSA’s shoulder,
1017、means that they can take whatever they want.
1018、And the fact that it’s all behind a wall of secrecy
1019、and they threaten people who want to expose it,
1020、means that whatever they’re doing, even violating the law,
1021、is something that we’re unlikely to know until we start having real investigations
1022、and real transparency into what it is that the government is doing.
1023、Glenn Greenwald, congratulations again on exposing what is a true scandal.
1024、I appreciate you joining me.
1025、I just heard from Lindsay,
1026、and uh, she’s still alive, which is good, and free.
1027、My rent checks apparently are no longer
1028、getting through to my landlord,
1029、uh, so they said if we don’t pay them
1030、in five days we’ll be evicted, which is strange
1031、because I’ve got a system set up that automatically pays them.
1032、Uh, so there’s that,
1033、and apparently there’s construction trucks
1034、all over the street of my house, so that’s uh…
1035、I wonder what they’re looking for.
1036、It is… uh, it is an unusual feeling that’s kind of hard to…
1037、hard to like describe or… or convey in words,
1038、but not knowing what’s going to happen the next day,
1039、the next hour, the next week, it’s scary,
1040、but at the same time it’s liberating.
1041、You know, the, uh…
1042、the planning comes a lot easier
1043、because you don’t have that many variables to take into play.
1044、You can only act and then act again.
1045、Now all these phone calls are being recorded digitally,
1046、not for content but for origin and destination,
1047、now word the government is going right into the servers
1048、of these large Internet companies.
1049、How does the government, politically speaking,
1050、make the argument that this is essential to national security
1051、and not a dramatic overreach in terms of personal privacy?
1052、It’s difficult Matt, because, as Peter was pointing out,
1053、overnight we had an extraordinary, late-night… close to midnight…
1054、announcement and a declassification
1055、from the Director of National Intelligence.
1056、They are scrambling.
1057、The administration’s already supported strongly by leaders in both parties
1058、from the intelligence committees.
1059、GCHQ has an internal Wikipedia, at the top secret,
1060、you know, super classified level, uh,
1061、where anybody working intelligence can work on anything they want.
1063、That’s what this is, I’m giving it to you, you can make the decisions on that,
1064、what’s appropriate, what’s not.
1065、It’s going to be documents of different types,
1066、pictures and PowerPoints, Word documents, stuff like that.
1067、- Um… – Sorry, can I take a seat?
1069、Sorry, I get you to repeat, so in these documents they all show…
1070、Yeah, there’ll be a couple more documents on that,
1071、that’s only one part though.
1072、Like, it talks about Tempora and a little more thing,
1073、that’s the Wiki article itself.
1074、It was also talking about a self-developed tool
1075、called UDAQ, U-D-A-Q.
1076、It’s their search tool for all the stuff they collect,
1077、was what it looked like.
1078、It’s going to be projects,
1079、it’s going to be troubleshooting pages for a particular tool…
1081、Um… what’s the next step?
1082、When do you think you’ll go public?
1083、Ah, I think it’s pretty soon, I mean with the reaction,
1084、this escalated more quickly.
1085、I think pretty much as soon as they start trying to make this about me,
1086、which should be any day now.
1088、I’ll come out just to go,
1089、”Hey, this is not a question of somebody skulking around in the shadows. ”
1090、These are public issues, these are not my issues,
1091、you know, these are everybody’s issues.
1092、And I’m not afraid of you, you know.
1093、You’re not going to bully me into silence like you’ve done to everybody else.
1094、And if nobody else is gonna do it, I will,
1095、and hopefully when I’m gone, whatever you do to me,
1096、there will be somebody else who’ll do the same thing.
1097、It’ll be the sort of Internet principle of the hydra.
1098、You know, you can stomp one person, but there’s gonna be seven more of us.
1100、Are you getting more nervous?
1101、I mean, no.
1102、I think, uh…
1103、I think the way I look at stress,
1104、particularly because I sort of knew this was coming,
1105、you know, because I sort of volunteered
1106、to walk into it, um…
1107、I’m already sort of familiar with the idea.
1108、I’m not worried about it.
1109、When somebody, like, busts in the door?
1110、Suddenly I’ll get nervous, and it’ll affect me,
1111、but until they do… I don’t know, you know.
1112、I’m eating a little less, that’s the only difference, I think.
1113、Let’s talk about the issue with,
1114、when we’re gonna say who you are.
1116、This is, you know, you have to talk me through this.
1117、Because I have a big worry about this.
1118、Okay, tell me.
1119、Which is that, if we come out and…
1120、I know that you believe that your detection
1121、is inevitable and that it’s inevitable imminently.
1122、There’s, you know, in the New York Times today,
1123、Charlie Savage, the fascinating Sherlock Holmes of political reporting,
1124、deduced that the fact that there’s been these leaks in succession
1125、probably means that there’s some one person who decided to leak…
1126、Somebody else quoted you as saying it was one of your readers,
1127、and somebody else put another thing,
1128、So, you know, it’s fine. I want people…
1129、I want it to be like, you know, like, this is a person…
1130、I want to start introducing the concept that this is a person
1131、who has a particular set of political objectives
1132、about informing the world about what’s taking place.
1133、So I’m keeping it all anonymous, totally,
1134、but I want to start introducing you
1135、in that kind of incremental way.
1136、But… here’s the thing.
1137、What I’m concerned is that if we come out and say,
1138、”Here’s who this is, here’s what he did,”
1139、the whole thing that we talked about,
1140、that we’re gonna basically be doing the government’s work for them.
1141、And we’re basically going to be handing them,
1142、you know, a confession,
1143、and helping them identify who found it.
1144、Maybe you’re right,
1145、maybe they’ll find out quickly, and maybe they’ll know,
1146、but is there any possibility that they won’t?
1147、Are we kind of giving them stuff that we don’t… or, or…
1148、The possibility that they know
1149、but they don’t want to reveal it because they don’t know.
1150、Or that they don’t know and we’re going to be telling them, like…
1151、Is it a possibility that they’re going to need two, three months of uncertainty,
1152、and we’re going to be solving that problem for them?
1153、Or, let me just say, the or part, maybe it doesn’t matter to you,
1154、maybe you wanted…
1155、You’re not coming out because you think inevitably
1156、they’re going to catch you, and you want to do it first,
1157、you’re coming out because you want to fucking come out.
1158、- And you wanna be heard. – Well, there is that.
1159、I mean that’s the thing, I don’t want to hide on this
1160、and skulk around, I don’t think I should have to.
1161、Um, obviously there are circumstances that are saying that,
1162、and I think it is powerful to come out and be like,
1163、look, I’m not afraid, you know,
1164、and I don’t think other people should either.
1165、I was sitting in the office right next to you last week.
1166、You know, we all have a stake in this. This is our country.
1167、And the balance of power between the citizenry and the government
1168、is becoming that of the ruling and the ruled
1169、as opposed to actually, you know, the elected and the electorate.
1170、Okay, so that’s what I needed to hear, that this is not about…
1171、But I do want to say:
1172、I don’t think there’s a case that I’m not going to be discovered
1173、in the fullness of time, it’s a question of time frame.
1174、You’re right, it could take them a long time. I don’t think it will.
1175、But I didn’t try to hide the footprint because again,
1176、I intended to come forward the whole time.
1177、I’m going to post this morning just a general defense of whistleblowers…
1178、That’s fine, yeah.
1179、…and you in particular without saying anything about you.
1180、I’m gonna go post that right when I get back.
1181、And I’m also doing like a big fuck-you to all the people
1182、who keep, like, talking about investigations.
1183、I want that to be…
1184、The fearlessness and the fuck-you to,
1185、like, the bullying tactics has gotta be
1186、completely pervading everything we do.
1187、And I think that’s brilliant.
1188、Your principles on this I love, I can’t support them enough.
1189、Because it’s inverting the model that the government has laid out,
1190、where people who are trying to, you know, say the truth
1191、skulk around and they hide in the dark
1192、and they quote anonymously and whatnot…
1193、I say yes, fuck that, let’s just…
1194、Okay, so here’s the plan then.
1195、And this is the thing.
1196、I think we just all felt the fact
1197、that this is the right way to do it.
1198、You feel the power of your choice, you know what I mean?
1199、I want that power to be felt in the world.
1200、And it is…
1201、it’s the ultimate standing up to them.
1202、Right, like, “I’m not gonna fucking hide,
1203、even for like one second,
1204、I’m gonna get right in your face.
1205、You don’t have to investigate,
1206、there’s nothing to investigate, here I am. ”
1207、- Yeah. – You know?
1208、And I just think that is just incredibly powerful.
1209、And then the question just becomes
1210、how do we do this in the right…
1211、you know, the perfect way, and that’s my burden.
1212、And that’s what I’m gonna…
1213、So today is gonna be the story in the morning,
1214、assuming that it doesn’t change with The Guardian,
1215、it’s gonna be the story in the morning,
1216、just to keep the momentum going, just to keep the disclosures coming,
1217、a big one at night.
1218、Now it’s becoming, like, okay, this is a major leak, and after today,
1219、when we post the two things that we’re gonna post,
1220、it’s gonna be, “What the fuck is this leak,
1221、and who did it,” I guarantee you.
1222、I just want to make sure… move over slightly.
1223、Do you want me to move a little more over, or, okay.
1224、I just wanna… all right.
1225、All right, we’re rolling.
1226、So let’s just begin with some basic background information,
1227、like, just state your name,
1228、what position you held in the intelligence community,
1229、and… and how long you worked within that community.
1230、Okay, um, just so I’m aware of where we’re going,
1231、how in depth are we going, just in general,
1232、like ‘I’m currently an infrastructure analyst
1233、you know, Booz Allen Hamilton,
1234、not going through my whole back story… ‘
1235、- Yeah. – Okay.
1236、Just like, yeah, summary kind of…
1238、Uh, My name’s Ed Snowden, I’m, uh, 29 years old,
1239、I work for Booz Allen Hamilton
1240、as an infrastructure analyst for NSA, uh, in Hawaii.
1241、And what are some of the positions
1242、that you held previously within the intelligence community?
1243、Uh, I’ve been, uh, a systems engineer, systems administrator,
1244、uh, senior advisor, uh, for the, uh,
1245、Central Intelligence Agency,
1246、solutions consultant and a, uh,
1247、telecommunications informations systems officer.
1248、And what kind of clearances have…
1249、have you held, what kind of classification?
1250、Uh, Top Secret, uh… Hm…
1251、So people in my levels of access for systems administration
1252、or as a… a infrastructure analyst,
1253、typically have, uh, higher accesses
1254、than an NSA employee would normally have.
1255、Normal NSA employees have a combination of clearances
1256、called TS, SI, TK, and Gamma.
1257、Um, that’s Top Secret,
1258、uh, Signals Intelligence, Talent Keyhole, and Gamma.
1259、And they all, uh, relate to certain things
1260、that are sort of core to the NSA mission.
1261、As a systems administrator,
1262、you get a special clearance called PRIVAC,
1263、for Privileged Access,
1264、which allows you to be exposed
1265、to information of any classification,
1266、regardless of what your position actually needs.
1267、Just before we go, a reminder of our top story,
1268、that’s that the former CIA technical worker
1269、Edward Snowden says he’s responsible for leaking information
1270、that US authorities had been monitoring phone and Internet data.
1271、The US Justice Department confirmed
1272、it’s in the first stages of a criminal investigation.
1273、Leave it longer or cut it shorter, what do you think?
1274、As far as the video that people saw?
1275、- Am I less identifiable now? – Lose it?
1276、Cause I can’t go all the way down. It’s still gonna be stubble.
1277、I don’t have the blade for closer.
1278、Will you be talking to any other media about this story today?
1280、Will you be coming to our office at Associated Press?
1281、We’d be interested to ask about where is Snowden now, what his plans are.
1282、I’m not going to talk about that, so unless you have other questions,
1283、it’s gonna be a fruitless interview.
1284、What are your plans, please?
1285、Are you staying in Hong Kong for the time being?
1286、For a little while.
1287、And do you have any hopes to write more about this story,
1288、or are you stopping new writing about this story?
1289、No, I’m gonna continue to write about it.
1290、Have you had any pressure from the US authorities
1291、- about continuing to report on this? – No.
1292、And have you heard anything about what could be the attitude
1293、of Hong Kong authorities towards this case,
1294、whether they’ve contacted you or asked you anything about
1295、the whereabouts of Snowden and whether that is another…
1296、I haven’t heard from the authorities of any government.
1297、And where do you think the story is going, for you
1298、and of course for Snowden, and of course for the US media
1299、and the US administration in general?
1300、Well, for me I can tell, I’m gonna continue to report on…
1301、do my reporting on what the government has been doing
1302、and what I think my readers should know about.
1303、Um, as for him, I don’t… I don’t think anyone knows.
1304、They could have people come after me
1305、or any of their third-party partners.
1306、You know, they work closely with a number of other nations.
1307、Or, you know, they could pay off the triads.
1308、You know, any of their agents or assets,
1309、uh… we have a CIA station just up the road,
1310、at the consulate here in Hong Kong.
1311、Hello, I’m Daniela Ritorto. The top story this hour:
1312、facing a criminal investigation, the whistleblower who revealed details
1313、on how the US is monitoring phone calls and Internet data goes public.
1314、Security forces in Afghanistan say a number of Taliban insurgents
1315、have targeted Kabul’s airport.
1316、Now it’s time for our newspaper review
1317、and looking at what’s making headlines around the world.
1318、Let’s start with The Guardian, our top story,
1319、which is revealing the identity of the former CIA employee
1320、who the paper says leaked information
1321、exposing the scale of American surveillance of the Internet.
1323、What a great story.
1324、Kira, Ewen, what do you think?
1325、Well, I think it’s a fantastic story…
1326、first off, it could be straight out of a John Le Carre novel.
1327、I mean, when you read what he did, yes, he got the material.
1328、He then decided to go to the place he identified
1329、as being very difficult for America to get at him…
1330、God damn it.
1331、…which is Hong Kong, because, of course, technically inside China,
1332、the one country, two systems policy there,
1333、meaning he would get potentially some protection abroad.
1334、All very well-planned. It could have been just out of a spy novel.
1335、But what about the details?
1336、Well, that could make it worse, but…
1337、I don’t know, only shows the lower half of my face.
1338、Snowden says he’d become increasingly dismayed
1339、by what he saw as the growing power of the NSA,
1340、hence his decision to pass on documents
1341、which are said to reveal not only that the organization
1342、monitored millions of phone calls,
1343、but that it had direct access to some of the biggest…
1344、How do you feel?
1346、what happens, happens. We’ve, uh, we’ve talked about this.
1347、I knew what the risks were.
1348、If I get arrested, I get arrested.
1350、We were able to get the information, uh, that needed to get out, out.
1351、And you and Glenn are able to keep reporting,
1352、regardless of what happens to me.
1353、Now what 29-year-old Edward Snowden said that US…
1354、The Guardian newspaper reveals his identity…
1356、…from Washington, David Willis has this.
1357、Uh, I’m sorry, who’s asking?
1358、Uh, I’m afraid you have the wrong room.
1360、Wall Street Journal.
1362、Uh, I’m sorry, say again?
1363、Uh, no. No thank you. No calls.
1364、I think they have the wrong number.
1365、Yeah, no calls. Thank you. Uh, wait, I’m sorry.
1366、If it’s uh, if it’s two men from the front desk,
1367、they can call, but no outside calls…
1368、Wait, actually, just let them through.
1369、Wait, wait, ma’am? Fuck!
1371、Uh, wait, is it… is it a lawyer?
1372、Yeah, no, no, no, I mean the people who are asking,
1373、ask them if they are lawyers.
1374、Uh, no. Tell her that, uh, she has the wrong number
1375、and there’s no Mr. Snowden here.
1376、Hi, Robert, can you talk right now?
1377、I safely got into the room.
1378、I’m now safely with the client, okay?
1379、So, can we talk together about the plan?
1380、Did this application start already or what? Technically?
1382、So technically it hasn’t started yet.
1383、Would you mind to talk in speakerphone?
1387、Hi, I’m the client.
1388、Hi, Edward, how are you holding up?
1389、Uh, pretty good. I’m doing well.
1390、Okay, I just met with the head of the UNHCR here in Hong Kong,
1391、and they are aware that you are raising
1392、the protection you are entitled to under the UNHCR and
1393、and they would like you to come in with us to the UN.
1395、If you come now, it’s lunchtime,
1396、but they’re gonna let us in. No one else can get in.
1398、At the UNHCR there are separate exits from the building
1399、so we have a good opportunity,
1400、if any of the media finds out you’re there…
1402、…you’ll be able to exit a different way from the building.
1403、Okay, that’s great. Is it okay if I bring equipment?
1404、’Cause I’m just kind of going
1405、so I can leave in any direction at any time
1406、and not come back, if necessary.
1407、Just walk out of there. You don’t have to go back.
1409、Take whatever you want with you, and just go with Mr. Man.
1410、I will pick you… he knows where I’m gonna pick you guys up,
1411、and then I’ll bring you to the UNHCR.
1412、Okay, that sounds good.
1413、Thank you, uh, thank you so much for helping me.
1414、He’s quite worried about the next step,
1415、about accommodation, where he is going to stay,
1416、whether there is something private and he would not be discovered by the police.
1417、Don’t worry about that now. Let’s just get him to the UN.
1418、Okay, I see.
1419、Okay, I will give you a call before we start, okay?
1420、- Okay, thank you. – Okay, thank you.
1421、- Bye-bye. – Bye.
1423、We don’t have a car.
1425、What I’m thinking…
1426、we may ask the concierge to arrange a car,
1427、or we just go down and catch a taxi.
1428、But it’s quite…
1429、The traffic here in Tsim Sha Tsui is quite difficult to get a taxi.
1431、And so is there a precedent for this,
1432、where Hong Kong would extradite someone for political speech?
1433、No, I’m not aware of.
1434、But if we have a torture claim
1435、or asylum-seeking claim,
1436、then they ought, under the law,
1437、they ought to give you recognizance
1438、for you to stay in Hong Kong
1439、because they don’t know where to dump you back yet.
1440、The president certainly does not welcome the way
1441、that this debate has earned greater attention in the last week,
1442、the leak of classified information about sensitive programs
1443、that are important in our fight against terrorists
1444、who would do harm to Americans, is a problem.
1445、But the debate itself is legitimate and should be engaged.
1446、”The US Spied on Millions of Brazilian Emails and Phone Calls”
1447、I’d like to show you the new document now.
1448、You’ll see it much more clearly.
1449、This map shows the cables they use to collect the data for PRISM.
1450、Here it shows how much they are collecting.
1451、The thicker the line, the more they’re collecting.
1452、You can see these lines,
1453、the cables, are quite thick in the south of Brazil
1454、and up north in the Sea of Brazil.
1455、So they’re collecting a lot through the PRISM program,
1456、which I think is very important because PRISM is Facebook,
1457、Skype, YouTube, Yahoo, Hotmail.
1458、And it shows a lot is being stolen from Brazil.
1459、But we don’t know how much the Brazilian government knows,
1460、or whether it’s collaborating with Brazilian companies.
1461、But we’re going to know, I believe.
1462、One day we will know everything. Or almost everything.
1464、All right, so which ones do we want here, then?
1465、This is operational stuff, so we mustn’t say any of this…
1466、So redact that.
1467、Go… go to top.
1468、What about the Alexander quote?
1469、Yeah, that’s in TARMAC.
1470、”Why can’t we collect all the signals all the time?
1471、Sounds like a good summer homework project for Menwith. ”
1472、Keith Alexander, the head of the NSA, on a visit to UK.
1473、- This one. – Yeah.
1474、Secret document, isn’t it? Secret document.
1475、We’ve got a stick here that should just have three single slides on them.
1476、If it’s got more than three single slides, we have to be extremely careful.
1477、- Yeah? – Yeah, that’s it.
1478、This is really dangerous stuff for us, The Guardian, isn’t it?
1479、You make mistakes and at the very end where we kept it all under lock and key…
1480、And no one knows. I’m not saying that…
1481、They will come in and smack the front door down if we…
1482、if we elaborate on that.
1483、He said the Prime Minister’s extremely concerned about this.
1484、And they kept saying, “This is from the very top. ”
1485、As you can see on this map,
1486、the flight that reportedly has Snowden aboard
1487、has almost reached its destination here in Moscow,
1488、scheduled to land in the Russian capital within minutes.
1489、As you may have heard, there is a CIA Agent
1490、who has revealed a lot of information,
1491、and he is now trapped in the, um, the airport in Moscow.
1492、We managed to get him out of Hong Kong,
1493、but when he landed in the Moscow airport,
1494、the American government had canceled his passport.
1495、So, formally, he hasn’t entered into Russian territory.
1496、He is in the transit area of the airport,
1497、and one of our people is accompanying him.
1498、We are trying to arrange a private jet to, um
1499、take him from Moscow to Ecuador
1500、or perhaps maybe Venezuela or maybe Iceland,
1501、countries where he will be safe.
1502、The floor is yours, for the time that you deem necessary.
1503、Thank you and hello.
1504、First of all, Americans’ justification for everything
1505、since the September 11 attacks is terrorism.
1506、Everything is in the name of national security,
1507、to protect our population.
1508、In reality, it’s the opposite. A lot of the documents
1509、have nothing to do with terrorism or national security,
1510、but with competition between countries,
1511、and with companies’ industrial, financial, or economic issues.
1512、Secondly, there’s XKeyscore.
1513、When we first started publishing articles,
1514、the US government’s defense
1515、was that it was not invading the content of communications,
1516、just taking the metadata.
1517、That means the names of the people talking,
1518、who is calling whom, call durations.
1519、But if I know all the people you are communicating with,
1520、and everyone they are communicating with,
1521、where you are when you are communicating,
1522、the call duration and the location,
1523、then I can learn a lot about your personality,
1524、your activity, and your life.
1525、This is a major invasion of privacy.
1526、In reality, that defense is totally false.
1527、The US government has the ability to get not only metadata,
1528、but the actual content of your emails or what you say on the phone,
1529、the words you type into Google searches,
1530、the websites you visit,
1531、the documents you send to colleagues.
1532、This system can track nearly everything that every individual is doing online.
1533、So if you’re a journalist investigating the American government,
1534、if you work for a company with American competitors,
1535、or if you work in human rights involving the American government,
1536、or any other field,
1537、they can very easily intercept your communication.
1538、If you’re an American living in the US,
1539、they have to seek permission from a court,
1540、but they always get it.
1541、But if you’re not American, they don’t need anything,
1542、no special permission at all.
1543、I think the consequences of eliminating privacy are difficult to predict,
1544、but we must understand that this will have an enormous impact.
1545、The population’s ability to have demonstrations
1546、or to organize is greatly reduced when people don’t have privacy.
1547、May I collect all phones, please?
1549、I have everything here, so…
1550、Put them in the refrigerator.
1552、So as you know, in June,
1553、Snowden was charged with three legal violations,
1554、felonies, principally under a World War I-era criminal law
1555、called the Espionage Act.
1556、The Espionage Act is an extremely broad criminal
1557、prohibition against the sharing or dissemination
1558、of what’s called national defense information.
1559、It was only used to, uh, prosecute people
1560、who had been accused of acting with a foreign power.
1561、Spies, not whistleblowers.
1562、And it’s a very unusual legal representation, I think,
1563、not just for all of you but for me as well.
1564、The Espionage Act does not distinguish between leaks
1565、to the press in the public interest
1566、and selling secrets to foreign enemies
1567、for personal profit.
1568、So under the Espionage Act, it’s not a defense
1569、if the information that was disclosed should not have been
1570、withheld in the first place, that it was improperly classified,
1571、it’s not a defense if the dissemination
1572、was in the public interest, that it led to reforms,
1573、um, even if a court determines that the programs
1574、that were revealed were illegal or unconstitutional,
1575、that’s still not a defense under the Espionage Act,
1576、the government doesn’t have to defend the classification,
1577、it doesn’t have to demonstrate harm from the release,
1578、um, all of this is irrelevant.
1579、So when we say that the trial wouldn’t be fair,
1580、we’re not talking about what human rights lawyers
1581、think of as fair trial practices.
1582、We’re saying the law, the statute itself…
1583、eliminates any kind of defense that Snowden
1584、might be able to make,
1585、and essentially would equate him with a spy.
1586、And of course those three counts could be increased
1587、to a hundred or two hundred or three hundred.
1588、They could charge him separately for each document
1589、that has been published by a journalist.
1590、And I think that… that we all recognize,
1591、even though we sit here as lawyers in a lawyer’s meeting,
1592、that it’s probably 95 percent politics
1593、and five percent law how this will be resolved.
1594、Mr. Snowden has been charged with very serious crimes,
1595、and he should be returned to the United States
1596、where he will be granted full due process
1597、and every right available to him as a United States citizen…
1598、facing our justice system under the Constitution.
1599、No, I don’t think Mr. Snowden was a patriot.
1600、I called for a thorough review of our surveillance operations
1601、before Mr. Snowden made these leaks.
1602、My preference, and I think the American peoples’ preference,
1603、would have been for a lawful,
1604、orderly examination of these laws.
1605、A thoughtful, fact-based debate,
1606、uh, that would then lead us to a better place.
1607、Oh, my God. David.
1608、Hello, my baby, how you doing?
1609、- I’m okay. – You okay?
1611、I just want to go home.
1612、Okay, okay, you just have to walk.
1613、How are you?
1614、Good, I’m totally fine, I didn’t sleep at all,
1615、- I couldn’t sleep. – I know.
1616、”Brazil Demands Explanation from UK Government”
1617、Recent reports have revealed that the NSA
1618、have access to encryption keys
1619、and they paid tech companies
1620、to introduce back doors in encryption protocols.
1621、So we’re going to talk about
1622、ways in which we can defend ourselves
1623、against governments spying on us.
1624、So Mr. Jacob Applebaum is an encryption
1625、and security software developer and journalist.
1626、Ladar Levinson is the founder of the encrypted email service
1627、Lavabit, used by Edward Snowden.
1628、You have the floor.
1630、Lavabit is an email service that hopefully one day will be able
1631、to stand on its own without any references to Snowden.
1632、My service was designed to remove me
1633、from the possibility of being forced to violate a person’s privacy.
1634、Quite simply, Lavabit was designed to remove
1635、the service provider from the equation.
1636、By not having logs on my server and not having access
1637、to a person’s emails on disk,
1638、I wasn’t eliminating the possibility of surveillance,
1639、I was simply removing myself from that equation.
1640、In that surveillance would have to be conducted on the target,
1641、either the sender or the receiver of the messages.
1642、But I was approached by the FBI quite recently
1643、and told that because I couldn’t turn over the information
1644、from that one particular user,
1645、I would be forced to give up those SSL keys
1646、and let the FBI collect every communication
1647、on my network without any kind of transparency.
1648、And of course…
1649、I wasn’t comfortable with that, to say the least.
1650、More disturbing was the fact that
1651、I couldn’t even tell anybody that it was going on.
1652、So I decided if I didn’t win the fight to unseal my case,
1653、if I didn’t win the battle to be able to tell people
1654、what was going on,
1655、then my only ethical choice left was to shut down.
1656、Think about that.
1657、I believe in the rule of law,
1658、I believe in the need to conduct investigations.
1659、But those investigations are supposed to be difficult for a reason.
1660、It’s supposed to be difficult to invade somebody’s privacy.
1661、Because of how intrusive it is.
1662、Because of how disruptive it is.
1663、If we can’t… if we don’t have our right to privacy,
1664、how do we have a free and open discussion?
1665、What good is the right to free speech…
1666、if it’s not protected…
1667、in the sense that you can’t have a private discussion
1668、with somebody else about something you disagree with.
1669、Think about the chilling effect that that has.
1670、Think about the chilling effect it does have
1671、on countries that don’t have a right to privacy.
1672、I’ve noticed a really interesting discussion point.
1673、Which is that what people used to call liberty and freedom,
1674、we now call privacy.
1675、And we say, in the same breath, that privacy is dead.
1676、This is something that really concerns me about my generation.
1677、Especially when we talk about how we’re not surprised by anything.
1678、I think that we should consider that
1679、when we lose privacy, we lose agency, we lose liberty itself.
1680、Because we no longer feel free to express what we think.
1681、There’s this myth of the passive surveillance machine.
1682、But actually what is surveillance, except control?
1683、This notion that the NSA are passive, this is nonsense.
1684、What we see is that they actively attack European citizens,
1685、American citizens, and in fact, anyone that they can
1686、if they perceive an advantage.
1687、And then there’s the key paragraph that says
1688、it was the SCS that intercepted
1689、Chancellor Merkel’s mobile phone.
1690、We have the number.
1691、What will you tell the German people?
1692、I’ll have to give that in testimony.
1693、- What are you going to tell? – Everything I can, truthfully.
1694、What will you talk about?
1695、Whatever the questions they ask me.
1696、- Yeah, I think it’s over there. – Okay, all right. Thank you.
1697、Hello, Mr. Binney.
1698、Hey, how are you? How are you? Good to see you again.
1699、Nice to meet you again, yes.
1700、It is my pleasure to be here. I feel that it’s important to testify
1701、about what’s really going on behind the scenes
1702、in the intelligence communities around the world.
1703、Not just in NSA.
1704、All those programs that Edward Snowden has exposed
1705、fundamentally are ways of acquiring information.
1706、Every dictatorship down through history has always done that.
1707、One of the first things they need to do
1708、is try to acquire knowledge of their population.
1709、And that’s exactly what these programs do.
1710、I see this as the most major threat to our democracies all around the world.
1711、What do you think they’re doing to reporters,
1712、those of us that are working directly
1713、with the Snowden documents?
1714、How do you think they would approach dealing with people like us?
1715、You’re on the cast iron cover list.
1716、Which means any… any electronic device you use
1717、that they can attach to you they’ll record and capture all that data.
1718、And what do they do with that data? Trying to figure out what we’re doing?
1719、Uh, well, that’s part of it,
1720、but the other part for them I think
1721、is to find the sources of information you’re getting.
1722、So if I have a confidential source
1723、who’s giving me information as a whistleblower,
1724、and he works within the US government,
1725、and he’s concerned about
1726、what he perceives as violations of the Constitution,
1727、and he gets in touch with me, they… go ahead.
1728、From there on, they would nail him and start watching everything he did,
1729、and if he started passing data, I’m sure they’d take him off the street.
1730、I mean, the way you’d have to do it is like Deep Throat did, right?
1731、In the Nixon years.
1732、Meet in the basement of a parking garage, physically.
1733、”Let’s disassociate our metadata one last time…
1734、so we don’t have a record of your true name
1735、in our final communication chain.
1736、This is obviously not to say you can’t claim your involvement,
1737、but as every trick in the book is likely to be used in looking into this,
1738、I believe it’s better that that particular disclosure
1739、come on your own terms.
1740、Thank you again for all you’ve done.
1741、So sorry again for the multiple delays,
1742、but we’ve been in uncharted territory with no model to benefit from.
1743、If all ends well, perhaps the demonstration that our methods worked
1744、will embolden more to come forward.
1746、So the update that I wanna give you
1747、is about the new, um…
1748、the new source that we…
1750、That… This is what…
1751、This is the person who’s doing the most…
1753、…the work on it, um…
1754、And now, basically what’s happened is…
1756、That’s actually… that’s really dangerous.
1757、Um… on the source’s side.
1758、Do they know how to take care of themselves?
1759、I mean he… it’s all being done…
1762、And they’re all talking…
1765、I was gonna say, one of the big questions there is,
1766、can they handle it?
1767、No, they’re very careful.
1768、- Even… through that. Yeah. – Okay.
1770、That’s where that is.
1771、Wow, that’s really something.
1772、Did you know that?
1773、It’s not the actual planes.
1774、Right, right, you mean the control.
1775、It’s the process, who’s sending the… yeah.
1776、There’s a chart.
1777、There’s like a whole layout for every one…
1778、That is really bold; it’s really risky.
1779、You know, that’s the thing, if they understand what they’re doing…
1780、There’s this chart, it goes like this.
1781、It shows the decision-making chart.
1782、It’s shaped like this:
1783、- So up here it says… – Mm-hmm.
1784、That’s the decision-making chart for each… one.
1785、- It’s so political! – This is this part’s amazing.
1786、- That’s… – That’s fucking ridiculous.
1787、This is… It’s so shocking.
1788、That’s… that’s the population of entire countries.
1789、That’s what we’re working on.
1790、That person is incredibly bold.
1792、But also very well aware.
1793、You know, I just hope… I mean…
1794、No, I mean, the boldness of it is shocking,
1795、but it was obviously motivated by what you did,
1796、- I mean… – This is going to.
1797、This is going to That could raise the profile…
1798、of this whole political situation
1799、with whistleblowing to a whole new level.
1800、- Exactly. – It’s gonna…
1801、Yeah, I actually think that’s a great thing.
1802、And I think people are gonna see what’s being hidden again,
1803、again, by a totally different part of the government.